Curse

reaper with no name · Sep 01, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Wait, it is? I thought...

Oh yeah, duh, MS doesn't recharge itself. Probably why I ignored the recharge last time I looked at it. But like I said, I don't know sins. Heck, my sin swings a hammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyekwah2

ANet, if you're reading this thread, know that most people posting are simply contributing ideas to buff Mysticism, not necessarily conveying their opinion that it should be changed nor do the player posting here reflect the general consensus. Odds are if someone thinks Mysticism is fine, they'd either write a brief post saying it's fine as it is or they'd simply not write here at all.

With that said, of course I don't think Mysticism should be buffed and I'll tell you my reasoning. Take all primary attributes from all professions. Which are the best and the worst? Among the best are almost surely Expertise and Critical Strike. In fact, there are a wide variety of builds which simply utilize Ranger and Assasin simply for their primary attribute. Among the worst, well perhaps you won't agree with me, but I happen to think that Leadership and Spawning Power happen to provide the weakest passive effect and you see that in any builds whose skill components don't require above 12 points in their attribute to be effective belonging to the Paragon and the Ritualist.

Mysticism could be a lot worse. Most people consider it weak simply because it doesn't enhance damage and the energy-gains aren't equal to that of the superior Critical Strike attribute. For the Dervish profession, the passive effect matches the profession brilliantly. I think the whole point behind providing the bonus when the enchantment ended was to encourage enchantment stripping for more bonuses (pious skills), though obviously there's no advantage if the build isn't used that way. If anything, I would only recommend that the energy be gained not at the end but the beginning as to also be more well-rounded with other professions.

Don't make comparisons to Critical Strike. It's one of the better primary attributes of the game, and if you wanted to buff Mysticism to surpass it, you'd only be unbalancing the entire game.

The majority of the game's playerbase still believe that monks are the best healers and protters, even though ER eles can beat pure heal monks and pure prot monks at their own games simultaneously. Clearly, then, the majority is not necessarily always right.

The idea behind mysticism would have been good if the enchantment-stripping mechanic had worked properly and if it gave back enough energy to be worthwhile. However, neither of these are true, so as it is it sucks.

It can be compared to critical strikes. Both give energy. However, critical strikes gives more and offers a significant combat boost at the same time. Yes, critical strikes is one of the better primary attributes, but what does that have to do with the fact that mysticism sucks? Your argument actually seems to support the idea that mysticism needs to be buffed.

As it stands right now, dervishes are possibly the most underpowered profession in the game (although one could argue Paragons are worse off). Assassins are arguably one of the most overpowered. You're telling me a buff to mysticism is going to reverse this? I highly doubt it. The gulf is just too large for such a simple change to bridge.

Well, unless they do something like "for every rank of mysticism, you deal 10 holy damage to whichever enemy you happen to be targetting when an enchantment ends on you".

Marvel-Kid · Sep 01, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

In each post I've read, there's only one line. 0.o
I agree. I have a derv and it used to be my main char, but now, there seems almost no point to play that char. I propose that new skills, higher effects, and higher healing/energy are in need of play. Come to think of it, I dont really use mysti.- Which is why it should be buffed in some way.
/signed

eyekwah2 · Sep 01, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

The majority of the game's playerbase still believe that monks are the best healers and protters, even though ER eles can beat pure heal monks and pure prot monks at their own games simultaneously. Clearly, then, the majority is not necessarily always right.

Then by that logic, I think lions would make great babysitters. I'm clearly do not represent the majority opinion, but the majority is not always right, therefore my logic is sound, right?

Quote:

The idea behind mysticism would have been good if the enchantment-stripping mechanic had worked properly and if it gave back enough energy to be worthwhile. However, neither of these are true, so as it is it sucks.

Then that's a problem with the profession mechanics, not just Mysticism. I think putting a fat label that reads "It's my fault, k thx. --Mysticism" is a little premature if even your own reasons for bad performance with dervishes involves other aspects. It'd be like insisting critical strikes get a buff and provide more energy on a critical because you don't like how shadow stepping mechanism works. Whether Mysticism provides enough energy or not is subjective, but remember that it is not and never will be a substitute for energy management.

Quote:

It can be compared to critical strikes. Both give energy. However, critical strikes gives more and offers a significant combat boost at the same time. Yes, critical strikes is one of the better primary attributes, but what does that have to do with the fact that mysticism sucks? Your argument actually seems to support the idea that mysticism needs to be buffed.

My point is that a dervish can cast 5 energy enchantments and with enough points in Mysticism can get 100% return in energy and as good as critical strikes is, if an assassin tried to put on more than 2 enchantments, he ain't doing so hot with energy. The bonus is completely different and therefore its advantage is fundamentally different. If you want to prove why dervishes would do far better with a primary attribute similar to the assassin because it hits multiple targets, I could just as easily demonstrate a build in which Mysticism would excel as it is already and an assassin would bomb with. What's my point? Mysticism and Critical Strikes can't be compared. Other than providing energy, there are no other relevant similarities.

Quote:

As it stands right now, dervishes are possibly the most underpowered profession in the game (although one could argue Paragons are worse off). Assassins are arguably one of the most overpowered. You're telling me a buff to mysticism is going to reverse this? I highly doubt it. The gulf is just too large for such a simple change to bridge.

I didn't mean that, but rather that balance is far more complex an issue than simply which profession is better than which other profession and therefore radically changing how a profession works will have radical balance issues for every other class.

Quote:

Well, unless they do something like "for every rank of mysticism, you deal 10 holy damage to whichever enemy you happen to be targetting when an enchantment ends on you".

I'll assume that was supposed to finish your second to last sentence. Point is the same though.

draxynnic · Sep 02, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Over a long period of staying on the same target MSDB can put out more blossoms. But if you stay on the same target for more than two death blossoms, then something in the rest of your team build is horrible, because that target should be long dead. In actual play you just will not regularly be able to get off death blossoms much more often than once every 3 seconds, as such it makes no since to devote 4 skills including your elite (I assume lead + exhausting + MS + DB) when 3 skill not including your elite will perform at the same level.

Let's do the maths, shall we? Let's assume the use of Critical Agility (giving an attack every 0.89 seconds, which I'll round to 0.9), that both builds use Jagged/Fox to get in, and start the count after the first DB has completed (so Fox Fangs has been recharging for 0.9 seconds.

Without Moebius Strike, you then have to wait an extra 2.1 seconds for Fox Fangs to recharge (Jagged can be dropped at any time during that recharge period), so your second DB isn't going to be ready until 2.6, and will complete at 3.5 - and that's assuming the attack skills don't have any after delay. Meanwhile, Fox Fangs will have started its recharge at 2.6, so it won't be ready to go again on your next target until 5.6.

With Moebius Strike, in the worst-case scenario (when the target has >50% when the Moebius lands) you land the Moebius at 0.9s, requiring a 1.1s wait until DB is ready again... which then completes at 2.9. Your combo is complete 0.6 seconds faster than when you have to go through the Fox Fangs bottleneck, possibly allowing you to get the area damage off again before it dies or to finish it off before a big heal or prot arrives, and if you need to, you can keep repeating one second faster and with 5 less energy each time (which may or may not be important depending on your energy management and other skills being used). More importantly, when you get that second DB off, Fox Fangs is recharged and ready for you to start over again on a new target (after Jagged, of course), which it won't be without Moebius. If the target has <50% when the Moebius hits, of course, this works even better (but, for the record, Fox Fangs has still recharged by the time you want it on a second target).

Of course, this analysis assumes perfect conditions - spread-apart opponents, slower attack rates, and not using skills as soon as they're ready. However, while Fox Fangs does make Moebius less required and makes other possibilities more viable by comparison, I don't think it's clear that using another elite instead would actually be improved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

As it stands right now, dervishes are possibly the most underpowered profession in the game (although one could argue Paragons are worse off).

Only if you're not including the Imbagon build.

Going straight off the top of my head, I'd probably list the strengths of primaries (in PvE) in the something like following order:

Soul Reaping (passive effect)
Energy Storage (passive effect and skills)
Critical Strikes (passive effect)
Expertise (passive, some skills)
Strength (skills ONLY)
Divine Favour (passive effect, some skills)
Leadership (passive... LOTS of energy!)
Mysticism
Fast Casting
Spawning Power

Now, this order hasn't been calculated by scientific means and there are a lot of spots I'm not sure about, but I am certain that the seven skills placed above Mysticism in the power order belong there.

Catchphrase · Sep 02, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Unlike other expansion professions, dervish is the only profession to date to introduce a new method of utilising pre-existing skill types and mechanics instead of bringing new skill types / mechanics (save for the gimmicky and largely redundant Form skills). This method in question is our very own unique trait to be able to strip our own enchantments at our own whim. Yet it is not happening since most of the enchantment we use currently are considered have lengthy recharge and there are zero incentives to remove them prematurely. Would you strip your HoF for a 3-4 energy gain? How many of the current enchantments would you bring along and strip prematurely? I think I can total them up in one hand with two of my fingers amputated.

We can safely conclude Mysticism is suffering the Zealous Renewal syndrome; the active effects of our viable enchantments far outweighs the ending effects that we end up trying to prolong it as much as possible, resulting the energy gain kicking in at the most inopportune time. Tweak the duration and recharge of the supplementary enchantments (e.g. HoF), rework the end effects of complimentary enchantments (e.g. Grenth's Fingers), then perhaps we can see some productivity squeezed out of Mysticism.

Neo Atomisk · Sep 02, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

tbh give Dervishes a viable IAS and they'll be balanced. or lower the recharge time of heart of fury.

reaper with no name · Sep 02, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Even if dervishes had a permanent 33% IAS, they still wouldn't be as effective as scythe warriors or scythe sins at using the scythe (which is what I assume you're referring to there).

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyekwah2

Then by that logic, I think lions would make great babysitters. I'm clearly do not represent the majority opinion, but the majority is not always right, therefore my logic is sound, right?

Then that's a problem with the profession mechanics, not just Mysticism. I think putting a fat label that reads "It's my fault, k thx. --Mysticism" is a little premature if even your own reasons for bad performance with dervishes involves other aspects. It'd be like insisting critical strikes get a buff and provide more energy on a critical because you don't like how shadow stepping mechanism works. Whether Mysticism provides enough energy or not is subjective, but remember that it is not and never will be a substitute for energy management.

My point is that a dervish can cast 5 energy enchantments and with enough points in Mysticism can get 100% return in energy and as good as critical strikes is, if an assassin tried to put on more than 2 enchantments, he ain't doing so hot with energy. The bonus is completely different and therefore its advantage is fundamentally different. If you want to prove why dervishes would do far better with a primary attribute similar to the assassin because it hits multiple targets, I could just as easily demonstrate a build in which Mysticism would excel as it is already and an assassin would bomb with. What's my point? Mysticism and Critical Strikes can't be compared. Other than providing energy, there are no other relevant similarities.

I didn't mean that, but rather that balance is far more complex an issue than simply which profession is better than which other profession and therefore radically changing how a profession works will have radical balance issues for every other class.

I'll assume that was supposed to finish your second to last sentence. Point is the same though.

I fully agree. In fact, I said as much in my other posts in this thread. Fixing mysticism alone won't fix the dervish. But unless a buff to mysticism is part of the solution, then it won't matter, because dervishes simply won't have the energy to do the enchantment stripping thing.

How many 5 energy enchantments are worth using? Besides, with the sin's energy management, I'd argue that yes, he can do just fine with enchantment juggling. Certainly better than the dervish can currently, at least.

Catchphrase · Sep 02, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I fully agree. In fact, I said as much in my other posts in this thread. Fixing mysticism alone won't fix the dervish. But unless a buff to mysticism is part of the solution, then it won't matter, because dervishes simply won't have the energy to do the enchantment stripping thing.

How many 5 energy enchantments are worth using? Besides, with the sin's energy management, I'd argue that yes, he can do just fine with enchantment juggling. Certainly better than the dervish can currently, at least.

The problem is not how much energy but why isn't Mysticism being triggered as much as it should be? Even if you buff Mysticism to give 10 energy per enchantment ends, they will still run out of energy since they have small max energy pool.

Cuilan · Sep 02, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Going straight off the top of my head, I'd probably list the strengths of primaries (in PvE) in the something like following order:

Soul Reaping (passive effect)
Energy Storage (passive effect and skills)
Critical Strikes (passive effect)
Expertise (passive, some skills)
Strength (skills ONLY)
Divine Favour (passive effect, some skills)
Leadership (passive... LOTS of energy!)
Mysticism
Fast Casting
Spawning Power

Now, this order hasn't been calculated by scientific means and there are a lot of spots I'm not sure about, but I am certain that the seven skills placed above Mysticism in the power order belong there.

That list is so out of order.

My dervish builds tend to have a 2-3 energy management skills, but I'm fine with it as long as it also helps my goal in other ways (damage or other). Lower recharge and a few tweaking would be nice with mysticism skills...they seem less fun.

eyekwah2 · Sep 02, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

How many 5 energy enchantments are worth using? Besides, with the sin's energy management, I'd argue that yes, he can do just fine with enchantment juggling. Certainly better than the dervish can currently, at least.

True, but a couple 10 energy enchantments thrown in will only cost you 10 energy overall. Unlike other melee classes, dervishes have the energy regeneration of a caster and with a little energy management in their builds can afford it.

draxynnic · Sep 03, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That list is so out of order.

My dervish builds tend to have a 2-3 energy management skills, but I'm fine with it as long as it also helps my goal in other ways (damage or other). Lower recharge and a few tweaking would be nice with mysticism skills...they seem less fun.

Would you put anything I put above Mysticism below it? That's really the important question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I fully agree. In fact, I said as much in my other posts in this thread. Fixing mysticism alone won't fix the dervish. But unless a buff to mysticism is part of the solution, then it won't matter, because dervishes simply won't have the energy to do the enchantment stripping thing.

Pretty much. Really, unless Mysticism is buffed, it's given better skills, or its effect is made more important (or some combination of the above) it's going to have Spawning Power Syndrome and the Dervish will get progressively pushed aside in favour of other professions running Dervish secondaries.

reaper with no name · Sep 03, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyekwah2

True, but a couple 10 energy enchantments thrown in will only cost you 10 energy overall. Unlike other melee classes, dervishes have the energy regeneration of a caster and with a little energy management in their builds can afford it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Here's something interesting. If you add up all the dervish enchantments (including the two PvE skills), there is exactly one less dervish enchantment that has an effect on ending as there are that don't. And Extend Enchantments has a negative effect on ending, so it clearly is not meant to be stripped. So there are 2 more dervish enchantments that benefit from not being stripped as there are which benefit from being stripped (and it's even worse if you consider enchantments from secondary professions).

There are 14 dervish skills that strip enchantments (Extend Enchantments is one of them), 19 skills that benefit from being enchanted (Extend Enchantments also goes in this category), and two skills that don't strip enchantments but benefit from not being enchanted. That means there are 3 more skills that benefit more from not removing enchantments than there are skills that benefit from removing them.

At 15 mysticism, you can break even on a 5 energy enchantment. There are 18 dervish enchantments that cost 5 energy. These are the ones that we would expect to be "spammable" if mysticism is indeed intended to fuel enchantment spam (since most dervishes won't have 15 mysticism). Of those 18 5-energy enchantments, only 3 of them (Armor of Sanctity, Vital Boon, and Pious Renewal) have recharge times of 8 or less, and only 1 (Vital Boon) has an effect on end. In other words, when it comes to 5 energy enchantments, the only one that works for enchantment spam is Vital Boon.

Of course, it's also possible Mysticism was only intended to cover part of the cost of enchantment spam (that seems strange, however, since the more you spam 10 energy enchantments, the more energy you lose in spite of mysticism). But of the 21 10-15-energy enchantments, only 3 (Mirage Cloak, Mystic Regeneration, and Arcane Zeal) have recharge times of 8 or less. And only 1 of those (Mirage Cloak) has an effect on ending.

When one looks at it this way, it seems like mysticism was never intended for enchantment spam at all, but for helping the dervish recoup some of the energy lost for the enchantments he uses to buff himself up.

In other words, there are only 2 skills that work for enchantment spam; a 5 energy one that heals you on end, and a 15 energy one that causes a crappy earth AoE on end (whose blocking effect is arguably far more useful than the AoE).

Also, assassins and warriors have better energy management.